tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5728845570179741211.post3961657550049132808..comments2023-11-16T00:38:23.751-08:00Comments on Stand Firm: CORE: Continuation Of Real EisegesisScott Diekmannhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03227142854778319475noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5728845570179741211.post-83807377623025788152009-12-30T10:06:40.931-08:002009-12-30T10:06:40.931-08:00Worth a read: The paper of Prof. John Pless titled...Worth a read: The paper of Prof. John Pless titled "The Ordination of Women and Ecclesial Endorsement of Homosexuality: Are They<br />Related?," available here:<br />http://cyberbrethren.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/The-Ordination-of-Women-and-Ecclesial-Endorsement-of-Homosexuality.pdf<br /><br />Worth a listen: Dr. Al Collver's appearance on Issues, Etc. discussing the relationship between the ordination of women and the ordination of homosexuals:<br />www.issuesetc.org/podcast/303082609H2p.mp3Scott Diekmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03227142854778319475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5728845570179741211.post-6718329621125832042009-12-26T12:23:08.106-08:002009-12-26T12:23:08.106-08:00But wasn’t the issue of scriptural inerrancy the c...But wasn’t the issue of scriptural inerrancy the cause for so many problems within the ELCA. Do many ELCA church members realize that CORE and LCMC are, theologically speaking, the ELCA minus gay clergy. If they knew, then would these hopeful ELCA churchgoers still be eager to join CORE or LCMC?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5728845570179741211.post-18678939642215039862009-12-24T17:05:12.150-08:002009-12-24T17:05:12.150-08:00What would Luther say about the ELCA adopting full...What would Luther say about the ELCA adopting full communion with the Methodists, or with any non-Lutheran church body. Can someone help me find an essay written by Luther that strongly condemns such agreements. Would those who profess to be "confessional" Lutherans be for, or against. Would Luther have us "pick and choose" what we believe across denominations. Would we still be considered "Lutheran" if we did.<br /><br />Are CORE and LCMC in agreement with this decision. If so, then how can they be considered confessional Lutheran bodies:<br /><br />http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Communication-Services/News/Releases.aspx?a=4242Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5728845570179741211.post-19429608039416431772009-12-24T13:00:37.889-08:002009-12-24T13:00:37.889-08:00"Women have held leadership positions through..."Women have held leadership positions throughout the OT and the NT along with historical records that would back up the same assertions." True, women have held leadership positions. Also true that women have not been pastors, with a few exceptions, throughout the history of the Church. I haven't found anywhere where Luther advocated women pastors.Scott Diekmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03227142854778319475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5728845570179741211.post-22541245318868271352009-12-24T11:28:23.916-08:002009-12-24T11:28:23.916-08:00I am currently an ELCA pastor that is involved wit...I am currently an ELCA pastor that is involved with CORE and the ignorance of this is troublesome. CORE formed in an effort to reform the ELCA and is moving toward renewal of the Lutheran Church in North America. The view of Scripture in CORE is one that it is the inerrant Word of God and is seen as the norm of faith and life. The issue of women's ordination is one that holds no parallel to the sexuality argument and historical criticism is not meant to deconstruct scripture, but can deepen the scripture if used with the mindset that the Bible is the Word of God. It seems to me that you have not studied Luther well or his life to understand confessional Lutheranism. Women have held leadership positions throughout the OT and the NT along with historical records that would back up the same assertions. Luther was very controversial in his day when he willed his entire estate to his wife, Katie, which was upheld only because of the respect that the Elector had for him. LCMS has their own issues, though I respect much of their stances, except on closed communion and on women in leadership. There is also a difference between allowing Scripture to interpret you and making the Word of God into an idol. Luther also argued against making the Bible a paper pope. Luther believed in the inerrancy of Scripture, however his understanding does not fit the strict fundamentalist inerrancy that you seem to espouse.<br /><br />The problem with many in this day is that the movement is either to a rigid literalism or a rigid literary-ism, which does not reflect the both.and of Luther. Luther left tension and your stance seems much more crypto-Calvinist than it does Lutheran. Read the Confessions along with Luther's writings. You will find that Paull Spring and most of us in CORE are very confessional and willing to stand for the principles that Chemnitz and others fought for in the decades following Luther's death. Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum, the Word of the Lord endures forever.Rev. Christopher Byarshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14469189053943345010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5728845570179741211.post-63513474431873855432009-12-23T20:21:38.813-08:002009-12-23T20:21:38.813-08:00Could you or Issues, Etc. post a similar analysis ...Could you or Issues, Etc. post a similar analysis of the LCMC. <br /><br />The LCMC will argue ad nauseam that as an organization, it is structurally different than the "hierarchical" ELCA, but I am interested in theological differences and not in differences in church administration/synodical structure.<br /><br />If CORE and the LCMC share the same theology as the ELCA (minus the warm embrace of homosexuality), then both organizations are doomed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5728845570179741211.post-21705993026940533762009-12-15T14:47:21.447-08:002009-12-15T14:47:21.447-08:00Thanks for your comment Anonymous. I don't mak...Thanks for your comment Anonymous. I don't make assumptions anonymous, and I've already studied it. Women's ordination is clearly prohibited by Scripture. A good book to read on the subject is the collection of essays contained in <i>Women Pastors? The Ordination of Women in Biblical Lutheran Perspective</i>, edited by Pastors Matt Harrison and John Pless. I'd also caution against letting your determination of doctrine be swayed by what a "large group" believes.Scott Diekmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03227142854778319475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5728845570179741211.post-83653781156536266642009-12-15T14:08:55.981-08:002009-12-15T14:08:55.981-08:00Perhaps you should see this as a good opportunity ...Perhaps you should see this as a good opportunity to examine your own assumptions about women's ordination not being biblical. Here is a large group of Lutherans who stand up for the authority of scripture, but who reject the notion that this precludes women's ordination. This is the reason why you will not find many defecting to the LCMS. I think it shows the difference between fundamentalism and Evangelicalism in the classical sense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5728845570179741211.post-20813812730800068842009-12-02T18:02:05.324-08:002009-12-02T18:02:05.324-08:00There has been some effort to form other confessio...There has been some effort to form other confessional Lutheran church bodies, one example of which is the Evangelical Lutheran Diocese of North America, or ELDoNA, http://www.eldona.org/. I commend them for their efforts. Satan is patient. He instigates little changes here and there, that over decades aren't noticed, but which transform formerly confessional church bodies to bodies that snub their nose at doctrine. We need pastors and laymen who will stand up and fight against the continuation of the "anything goes" attitude that we now often see.<br /><br />I'm not a pastor Anonymous, rather, a concerned layman who wants to hold on to the catholic Church teachings.Scott Diekmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03227142854778319475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5728845570179741211.post-76426234766057912372009-12-02T16:27:52.287-08:002009-12-02T16:27:52.287-08:00It piqued my curiosity when I read there may be a ...It piqued my curiosity when I read there may be a new Lutheran synod. Sorry to hear it's going to go down nearly the same path as the other. Has it occurred to anybody to form a new Lutheran synod of conservative, confessional, and dare I say 'traditional' lutherans? As a lifelong member of the WELS, it has saddened me to watch in recent years as church growth methods have infiltrated our churches as well. Between the good folks in both our synod and the LCMS, and possibly a few even in the ELCA who might see the light, I would love to see movement in that direction. Just wishful thinking...<br />Keep up the good work, Pastor Diekmann.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5728845570179741211.post-9847954345063630562009-12-01T18:29:13.318-08:002009-12-01T18:29:13.318-08:00The reason I never had high hopes for CORE is that...The reason I never had high hopes for CORE is that no one in the ELCA has ever been concerned about their views on the ordination of women or the use of the Historical Critical method, the infallibility of Scripture, etc . . . their positions on these things have been in place since the ELCA formed. And those positions had been among those who formed her long before that.Rev. Jeffrey Rieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00709154736965506197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5728845570179741211.post-41671646208895102252009-12-01T14:34:44.106-08:002009-12-01T14:34:44.106-08:00Many of us had high hopes for CORE, but, speaking ...Many of us had high hopes for CORE, but, speaking for myself, it was just wishful thinking. When the Historical/Critical method is the only basis for interpreting scripture, then anything goes. Based on the H/C method, it is safe to assume that CORE will continue to downplay Jesus' miracles (there were hidden stones under the water, and the 5,000 had brought bread in their pockets). I too am glad that CORE has seen thru the fallacy of ELCA's recent actions, but we should not expect too much more.<br /><br />JohannesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com